In his interview to Shuum.ru, Igor Kochetkov, chairman of the interregional social movement Russian LGBT Network and director of the St. Petersburg LGBT organization Vykhod (Coming Out), discussed why homophobia is dangerous, why we need LGBT organizations, and when the fight for human rights can be considered to be over.

What is the purpose of the LGBT movement? What does it fight for?

The LGBT movement is part of the human rights movement; to sum up, we fight for human rights and against any discrimination, including discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. According to our research, 26% of gays and lesbians attempted to commit suicide at least once in their life course as a result of their orientation. Approximately one-third of our respondents experienced physical violence due to their sexual orientation.

Is this your own statistics, obtained through your own polls?

Yes, it is our own poll that surveyed 3,000 people. But there is external data as well. In response to last year’s opinion poll by Levada Centre, 4% said that gays and lesbians should be exterminated. Given that only 4-5% of the Russian population are gay, there is one potential killer for each one of us. However, this problem is associated not only with gay and lesbian people. Not so long ago, a terrorist group responsible for the bombing in Volgograd was detained. They were planning another attack in Astrakhan, and their motives were undoubtedly homophobic. The terrorists found a club attended by the local gay community members, and during the investigative experiment the main accused said, “Yes, we saw guys kissing and decided to blow up this club.” Together with racism, homophobia is yet another irrational fear that brings about very dangerous consequences, the threat of terrorism in particular.

Homophobia, if you analyze the word, still implies fear. However, I think, the opponents of gays and lesbians have no fear but only hate. In addition, there exist even the terms “Homo-haters” and “Homo-negativists”.

From psychology we know that aggression is a way to rationalize fears. If a dog is afraid of you, it will bark at you and may attack you to protect itself. Some people are afraid of us, they consider us dangerous.

Why would anyone fear you? I don’t see any reason to fear.

Indeed, there isn’t any. An objective reason of fear is non-existent. We shouldn’t be feared. The very fact of our sexual orientation and the fact that we love people of the same sex don’t threaten anyone. However, there are two points. Firstly, gays and lesbians are different from the majority. The first entirely appropriate response to uncertainty is fear and a desire to protect oneself. It is an instinct that has been incorporated in humanity since prehistory. However it goes away when people get more information about those they are afraid of. Then it turns out that there is nothing to fear. And here comes the second problem. In a society (especially in Russia), there is very little information on what sexual orientation and sexuality are, whether it “contagious”, whether it is an illness or not. For example, in a survey by the FOM, Fund Obschestvennoe Mnenie (Public Opinion), a part of the Russian population were asked if any of them have gay/ lesbian friends. 11% answered positively, 2% said they have a lot, and another 9% have only a couple of them. In comparison, in the United States a similar poll indicated that 70% of Americans have gays and lesbians among their friends. This does not by any means show that America has more gay people. This suggests that the U.S. LGBT community is more open, so there is less fear. A poll by the same FOM shows that the majority of those who have gay/ lesbian friends doesn’t have any negative feelings toward those friends. The main cause of fear is lack of information and fear of the unknown.

You said that gays and lesbians are atypical. Why do you think they are different? One of the main slogans of the gay and lesbian movement is that they are just like everyone else.

They are different in one respect – in the area of sexual attraction, which includes not only sex, but erotic and romantic feelings as well.

In your opinion, homosexualism - is it normal?

Homosexuality.

Well, yes.

Why did I correct you? There’s a lot hidden in words. We don’t say “heterosexualism”. In Russian, words with the suffix “ism” refer to either a disease – idiocy (idiotism), or an ideology – communism. Homosexuality is a type of sexual orientation, along with heterosexuality. In this sense, homosexuality is normal.

A film “Weird Gender” by Pavel Lobkov was recently aired on TV. Mr. Lobkov insists that all men are gay by nature.

Let’s leave it to his conscience. I don’t know why he drew such conclusions. In fact, there are different theories of sexual orientation. The most frequent question is about the nature of homosexuality, and nobody asks about the nature of heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality is in the nature of things. Boys are meant to like girls, and girls are meant to like boys. There isn’t anything to explain here.

Meant by whom?

It’s the course of nature.

How do you know?

For example, procreation happens only through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman.

It is known from biology that sexual orientation and sexual reproductive function are autonomous. A lot of gays and lesbians have children.

But you can’t deny the fact that there are, to choose the words carefully, rather aggressive homosexuals? They bother other people by hitting on them and try to shock others by showing off their orientation, as if they were sick and wanted to infect the rest with this disapproved by the majority sexual orientation.

There are very aggressive heterosexuals as well, who, if we speak about men, may be very blatant, too, and who hit on women in the streets, often in a rude and insulting manner. And this behavior is rightly considered hooliganism in the society.

It is deemed to be obscene, but natural.

What does the word “natural” mean? In the course of nature a male having a hard-on when he sees a female is natural. But in terms of human culture such demonstration of your sexual excitement is abnormal. We know of incidents when gays were killed for making sexual hints. A lot of women made suggestions of a sexual nature to me personally. As far as I know, they are all alive and well.

There is an opinion that almost all girls had a homosexual experience, and that there is nothing unusual about it. It is even encouraged. There is no aggression, when, for example, two girls are kissing. However, it is quite understandable why men feel hatred to kissing men, but almost marvel at kissing girls.

Firstly, I can immediately answer “no” to every question which has the word “all”. Everyone is different. Not only girls but also many heterosexual men have had homosexual experience. For example, there is substitutive homosexuality, when heterosexual teenagers get their first sexual experience with peers of the same sex, because at this age they are still not allowed to communicate with girls. This experience by itself does not make anyone homosexual.

Secondly, homophobia is one of the manifestations of patriarchy. From this point of view, the man is the chief, the leader, the guide, and he must possess all socially approved characteristics – he must be strong, intelligent, determined, and, in particular, heterosexual. The woman is subordinate, and those who are weak can be treated leniently. She is already just a woman, and if on top of that she is also a lesbian, then why pay attention to her. Let’s forgive her. A man who allows himself to be gay destroys the very foundations of a patriarchal mentality.

I’ve met young people who pretend to be gay for some reason. Is it some kind of a fashion trend?

A vast majority of gays and lesbians pretend to be heterosexual. So, on this basis, we should come to the conclusion that heterosexuality is fashionable, right? Frankly speaking, I can’t imagine a teenager who would approach his friends and say, “Hey guys, I’m gay.” And they would say, “Wow, cool!” In reality, he would most likely face aggression. So we can’t discuss it in terms of fashion.

Let’s take a look at the same situation taking place in a group of girls. Glossy magazines have been teaching Russian women for years already that it’s good to have a gay friend.

It’s not fashion but a form of revolt, if you will. Young people are usually more inclined to rebel against traditions of the society. Some dye hair red, some get their ears and noses pierced, some try to pass themselves off as gays and lesbians. Yes, it does happen as a form of rebellion, but it doesn’t last long. People get over it with age.

You were talking about discrimination against gay people, but we also know the opposite case. As far as I remember, there is a German movie where the protagonist has to pretend to be gay in order to get a good job.

You mentioned the movie, but I know some real examples of this kind. My friend told me that the head of a firm selling industrial equipment once asked her employees to hire a gay manager. I should tell you that if a person contacts our organization because he or she hasn’t been hired on the basis of his/her heterosexuality, we will definitely defend the rights of this person. Unfortunately, the opposite examples are more common. People have to hide their homosexuality if they want to work in the public or education sector.

It’s time we talk about the ill-fated gay parade.

I’ve been waiting for this question.

As far as I know, you and your organizations don’t take part in this event. There was something similar in St. Petersburg last year, and one poster said, Peter the Great was bisexual.

At the beginning of our conversation I’ve talked about the problems that members of the LGBT community have to face. The state and society ignore these problems, without understanding that these issues are related not only to the LGBT community. In this situation we should talk about this, talk loudly. The Rainbow Flash Mob happened just recently. It was the first case when a public action in defense of the LGBT rights was authorized in St. Petersburg. With 150 participants, this event was basically the first of its kind in Eastern Europe when there were more supporters than opponents and policemen altogether. The flash mob was brought by the Vykhod (Coming Out) organization (St. Petersburg, Russia). We think that the aim of any public event is to inform the society. As an outcome, people should understand why we get out there, into the streets. This doesn’t happen in the case of the Moscow Pride. There, the organizers motivate their desire to come out with a parade solely by the fact that they have the right to it.

Today the right to a peaceful demonstration is cruelly barred not only against gays.

Yes, and it is very bad. If people want to rally because they want to rally, they have a right to do that and no one can forbid them. We can compare the situation in Moscow and St. Petersburg for the past four years. The sixth attempt to hold the Pride in Moscow was stopped. On numerous occasions Nikolay Alexeev tried to register his organizations, but received denials. St. Petersburg’s situation is completely different. Since 2008 there is an officially registered LGBT organization Vykhod (Coming Out), and every year we hold public events. At first officials would not approve our pickets and demonstrations but several courts recognized the illegality of prohibition of the Pride in St. Petersburg in 2010, and finally we have been allowed to hold two demonstrations. I do not think that Moscow and St. Petersburg have different authorities. It is about the vital difference in the attitude towards the LGBT community in St. Petersburg.

May be St. Petersburg has a “gay lobby?

And you think Moscow does not have one? Was it corroded and moved to St. Petersburg? The matter is different. There are people in St. Petersburg who for the past four years have been educating about the issue. That is why today we can bring 150 people and have a demonstration. Not every public organization can gather so many people. And people are aware of danger. Pride in Moscow is a cart ahead of the horse. First you have to start the network; you have to educate society and authorities and then you can start having daring actions.

You and Nikolay Alexeyev have had strong disagreements for many years.

Yes.

One of them, as I read, is that you were able to register your organization and receive grants for your projects from Europe, while Alexeyev does not receive anything and spends his own money, although he does not work anywhere. Recently, he stated that for the last action in Moscow he had to spend 10,000 euros. Could you tell me the amounts you receive annually in grants and donations for your activities? On your web site we can see the report for 2009, and the number is one million rubles, but it is obvious that today the amount would be higher.

I am not going to mention the amount, because I would have to mention the amounts that are received by other organizations in order to understand if it is a lot or a little.

You have a big office in St. Petersburg. It costs a lot of money.

Yes, it is true, we have a good office. We have enough money for the office, staff, and events. By the way, this office houses two organizations. It is big, but it is not enough anymore for our organization, because it cannot accommodate all the volunteers and participants of our actions. We need a larger space.

The Rainbow flags, the symbol of the gay community, began to appear at the political events. For example, during the May Day demonstration in St. Petersburg people under such banners were demanding the resignation of Governor Valentina Matvienko. Has LGBT community been politicized?

We have a very clear position on this issue. Vykhod (Coming Out) is a non-political human rights organization. We are ready for a dialogue with any legitimate authority on the issue of the human rights. Without the state the human rights compliance is impossible. We don’t have a state other than the one that we live in now, so we’ll have a dialogue with this state. It doesn’t mean that we don’t criticize the government when it violates human rights. Neither it means that we don’t debate and are not ready to hold a protest against the authorities, not the authorities themselves, but against specific actions of the authorities that violate human rights. But we don’t participate in the struggle for political power.

Then who carried the rainbow flag?

The Rainbow flag is not my property, and is not the property of our organization. It is a common symbol of the LGBT community. Anyone may carry it. I don’t see any tragedy here.

I find it difficult to judge all the problems of gays and lesbians that you mentioned, but I know that the U.S. is concerned about suicide cases among young gay men. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton made speeches on this subject. Is this also a problem for Russia, considering that our country has the highest suicide rates in the world?

According to our data, 26% of gays and lesbians, generally in their teens, tried to commit suicide.

What age is this?

These attempts usually happen in adolescence and early adulthood. This is due to the fact that the person realizes his/her sexual identity, and sees that he/she is different from the others. The first reaction is – this is bad. Departed Igor S. Kon once said, “The first thing a three-year old boy learns is that he shouldn’t be a woman, and the second is that he shouldn’t be a faggot.” Individuals are taught from their early childhood that it is wrong to be homosexual, that it’s not normal. And what are the feelings of a young person when he or she understands that they are different? The first reaction is fear.

Wait, this means that it is homosexuals who are the first to become homophobes.

Exactly. But the point is that this fear is nurtured by a homophobic society through upbringing and propaganda.

Thus we’ve come to a famous saying that all homophobes are latent homosexuals who, seemingly, failed to commit suicide.

The statement that all homophobes are latent homosexuals belongs to Sigmund Freud. It is a quite competent opinion. Yes, indeed, there is a number of latent homosexuals among aggressive homophobes. But let’s go back to suicides. It is homophobia in the society that causes adolescent suicides among gays and lesbians.

Does sexual identity emerge in the adolescent years, or does it happen that a person of 30, 40, 50 years old might all of a sudden realize that he or she is gay?

Coming out to oneself as homosexual may happen any time. Heterosexuality is not a taboo, so when teenagers start thinking about themselves in relation to the opposite sex, they realize it easily and continue living with it in harmony. Homosexuality is a taboo, and a basic reaction to any tabooed thoughts and desires is rejection and suppression. People may suppress their homosexual thoughts throughout all their lives. There are cases when people realize their homosexuality at the age of both 30 and 60.

Can it be that homosexuality leads to pedophilia?

What is the connection?

Elaborating your ideas, say, there was a 15 year old boy who was sexually attracted to his male peers. Years are passing by, the boy is growing up and keeping his secret, he is trying to resist, and finally, by the age of 50, he realizes himself as gay and tries to make up for what he has missed, because this homosexual attraction emerged a long time ago, when he was 15.

According to this logic, heterosexuals who had their first sexual experience with their adolescent peers later return to this and become pedophiles. Obviously, this is absurd. The majority of pedophiles are heterosexuals. There is no ground to link pedophilia and homosexuality.

Your opponents do link them.

There is a goal to accuse homosexuals of all deadly sins. Everyone is looking for them.

Are you gay?

Yes. I was married, but marriage didn’t make me happy due to obvious reasons. Having become an adult, being entirely independent in my judgments and behavior, I was able to admit to myself my sexual orientation.

Did you have a coming-out?

Now it’s hard to name anyone who doesn’t know about my homosexuality yet.

Do you think the practice of coming out is worthy? Why announce to the world your sexual orientation?

One has to confess. In order to not lie, to not lead a double life, to not get overstressed due to split personality. When it comes to these topics in a conversation, I always suggest to heterosexual people to conduct an experiment: try to hide your sexual orientation for at least a month, pretending to be gay, and make everyone believe. And you’ll see how difficult it is. You may tell at work where you and your wife went for the weekend, but when a gay or a lesbian are asked about their private lives, they are forced to come out or to lie. They lead double lives, and this may have a really bad ending.

Like what?

Like stress and psychological disorder.

The last question: what is the goal of your organizations? Are you going to work forever, or is there a mission, and having accomplished it you will close?

The LGBT movement is the only movement that works for its own demolition. Our goal is to eliminate organizations that fight for the rights of homosexual people, but eliminate them because they are not needed. Until we gain absolute equality, no one destroys us.

For the original Russian text please follow this link: shuum.ru/interview/23